What ever you do, Never go back: Mike Penner

by Site Admin
Published on Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:51 am
Rift: eTransgender :: Transgender Forum
  
I happened to watch a program on the television teh other day about another transgender individual: Michael Berke who transitioned then "un-transitioned" based on religious influence. He mentions how he's deeply depressed, and often suicidal. Then there's the recent news of Mike Penner, a reporter, whom by all appearances did the same thing. Sometime in 2008 he began using "Mike Penner" on his byline after transitioning to Christine Daniels in 2007. Except this time, he committed suicide in his L.A. home:

Colleagues said today that Penner was found dead at his Los Angeles home and that suicide was the suspected cause of death. He was 52.


Apparently there's a lot of second guessing out there. No doubt, due to societal taboos, religious persecution, and other efforts forcing individuals into self doubt even after transition. It's really quite sad and personally I could never imagine even thinking about going back, if there ever was a back?
Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:51 am   Share
 
Or possibly a few people who are taking rash decisions.

With the enormous numbers of people, like us, who are taking the next step, a few, however prominent, is not statically significant.

I'm sure, like most of the members here and others in similar situations, elsewhere, I applaud the way younger people are being allowed to take steps toward expressing the way they feel.

I am one of many who dearly wishes they could have done the same. As i gradually adopted the lines and angles of being male, I hated my body and myself.

But I must say I am completely opposed to the notion of surgery for younger people. Hopefully, some studies can be made into the idea of chemically delaying the physical effects of puberty, or some of them, at least, for younger people like us, so that proper decisions can be made at the appropriate time.

Addition.

According to Wikipedia,


Code: Select all
Mike Penner (October 10, 1957 – November 27, 2009) was a sports writer for the Los Angeles Times. Penner self-identified as being a transexual in a 2007 column and returned from a vacation writing with the name Christine Daniels, before resuming his original name in 2008.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Daniels


I am sure we all will feel compassion for this poor man and our thoughts will be with his firends and relatives, at this time.
Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:51 pm
spacial
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 9:48 am
What a sad VERY SAD day!
Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:59 am
Cristasphoto
 
Michael Burke spoke in third person, as if "Michelle" were never really him. And you know, if that's how he looks it, that must've been how it really was. He wasn't a real transsexual, he was a crossdresser, for this is how they look at this part of themselves -- as another self that isn't really real. I suspect that, in getting out like he did, it was a good thing. But also, it just goes to show that not all of us truly are transgendered. We are really, many of us, not meant to transition. And that transitioning may, if unwarranted (as in Burke's case), in fact be spiritually damaging.

Friends, sisters, brothers. Do not believe that all of us are who we say we are. Not all of us are truly being true to ourselves in transition. For there are a number of reasons that we do transition, but for the majority of us, we are not sincere in how confess these things, or of the real roots behind our transitions.

The number of us is growing, I will tell you. It is rising exponentially. More and more persons are coming out and and confessing dysphoria, and more doctors and therapists are confirming such things. But this cannot be right. It is not natural to see so many, so fast. For if this were so, what would this mean? If there was a genetic behind all of us being this way, do not suppose that the reaction by cysgendered trans-phobes would be anything short of of a movement towards a eugenic solution? Think about it? It's about the survival of this species. And we cannot be the numbers we claim. Indeed, such abberations do occur naturally in nature, but to look at the scale, and to look frequency behind all of these events, the amount exposure that we, among the rest of the lgbt community has gotten. It cannot be right. It cannot be accidental either.

There is a force, and a movement, and we are most of us completely unaware of it as we follow it. I promise you, this conciousness about us, this collectivity among us, as one gender-bending force, it is great. And you will say that this is a good thing, but it is not. For not all of us are meant to follow this path. I beg you, ask yourselves, "how many among you can say that pornography was not a motivator in your decision to transition? And how many among you has not considered the incentive of sex, or being a desired, sexual creature? And how many of you truly can say that when you first put on those clothes, you did not masturbate for the image in the mirror before you?" Please ask yourselves these questions, and answer them honestly?

A sincere woman will tell you that she has always been a woman, regardless of her upbringing. Or that even in living with such great conservative restraints she could never let go of that part of her that she knew was feminine and genuine. A sincere woman never looked at sex in the ways that men do. And being herself, "dressing out" was not accompanied by an urge to splurge, to indulge in a living and sexual, narcissistic fantasy. This is not womanly. This boyish, and this is what separates women from boys.

You know, I see an epidemic right now. And I believe that sex has come to a very exotic point that defies everything conventional. Now the extremes are so great, and yet so easily accessible, that they have to be accepted. There is way out of it. Since the establishment of a global psychological precedent, now so many of us are enchanted, and fixated upon dreams, and fantasies. And now we can live out those fantasies to the very end. Only, how quickly do we realise that in order to make that one dream a reality, we have to give up everything in return. And even worse, how much more distressing is it that many of us many never really realise them. That many of them many never be manifest -- or at least, not in the ways we imagined.

D'you know, there are a few reasons given for why so many of us transtion late. But you know, it is not uncommon for a man to have something of a mid-life crisis. And sometimes, a man may chase a dream that was never fully thought out. He just thought.....that maybe....if only....But never really knew. Which is why he too often finds himself disappointed with the conclusion of his last minute endeavor. Recall, for example, his tendency to cluth tightly his youth in things like buying a Harley, or starting up a business doomed to fail. Adolescent dreams that never were. And of course, he is morbidly disappointed.

There is a reason for all of this,the connection, and it is engrained in our psychology -- or, at least, most of us. And this is none of it accidental, either. The flow of society has been geared in a specific direction. And it brings us towards nostalgia, and wanting, and it teaches us the the values in the obessions to maintain our youth. We no longer have our men and women to look up to, to grow up to be. We have only children, for the gods that the media drives into our heads. It is not right to be old. It is not right to lose our youth. Children are what we must be. In act of spite, or irony, instead engraining the innocense and wonder of a child, we have been instilled with the wanting, and demands of children. We are resigned to a material world, and accept that we are only material beings. God does not exist. Not in the ways we were misled to believe. God is now us. And are immortal so long as we have our youth. And for our youth, we cannot see passed illusion. And we cannot see the difference between fantasy and reality. It all has to be one. And we to make it so, or otherwise go crazy until it all falls into place. And of course, for most of us, this never happens. And when it does, it's never how we imagined. Ever.
Truth is never relative. Should we find that one truth contradicts another, there can only be two possble reasons for this: either a) one or both of them is in fact only a half-truth; or b) we do not yet fully understand either or both of them.
Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:38 pm
User avatar
Argiope
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 11:30 am
Location: California (northern) at the moment, United States of America
FYI, Michael/Michelle Burke is currently in process of transitioning back to womanhood.

@Argiope I intensely dislike your tone that assumes just by listening to a couple of Michael's words that you know their gender better than them. Incidentally, I find trans people's language about gender, including 1st person v 3rd person and "I am this gender" v "I am becoming this gender" fascinating. I have not deduced any simple pattern. Successful TSs refer to their past gender personas in the 3rd person and plenty of bigender people do not.

The trans community is hurt by over-simplification of gender identity from the outside. Let's not do it from the inside as well. Let's recognize and respect that Michelle's gender is complex and she is still working it out and leave it at that.

What facts can you support that more people are coming out as trans? If that's true, it doesn't mean that more people are coming at as transexual. Many, like myself, identify as genderqueer and as unable to fit in either women or men categories. In the Philipines, there's a relatively huge population of gender varient (trans?) people but very tiny TS population and they seem to get on quite well.
Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:23 pm
Ephilei
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:34 pm
I can only imagine what he was going through. My condolences to his family.

Gennee


:(
Be who you are.
Let no one else define who you are.
I'm getting better with age.
Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:03 pm
genevieve
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:19 pm
Argiope wrote:Michael Burke spoke in third person, as if "Michelle" were never really him. And you know, if that's how he looks it, that must've been how it really was. He wasn't a real transsexual, he was a crossdresser, for this is how they look at this part of themselves -- as another self that isn't really real. I suspect that, in getting out like he did, it was a good thing. But also, it just goes to show that not all of us truly are transgendered. We are really, many of us, not meant to transition. And that transitioning may, if unwarranted (as in Burke's case), in fact be spiritually damaging.

Friends, sisters, brothers. Do not believe that all of us are who we say we are. Not all of us are truly being true to ourselves in transition. For there are a number of reasons that we do transition, but for the majority of us, we are not sincere in how confess these things, or of the real roots behind our transitions.

The number of us is growing, I will tell you. It is rising exponentially. More and more persons are coming out and and confessing dysphoria, and more doctors and therapists are confirming such things. But this cannot be right. It is not natural to see so many, so fast. For if this were so, what would this mean? If there was a genetic behind all of us being this way, do not suppose that the reaction by cysgendered trans-phobes would be anything short of of a movement towards a eugenic solution? Think about it? It's about the survival of this species. And we cannot be the numbers we claim. Indeed, such abberations do occur naturally in nature, but to look at the scale, and to look frequency behind all of these events, the amount exposure that we, among the rest of the lgbt community has gotten. It cannot be right. It cannot be accidental either.

There is a force, and a movement, and we are most of us completely unaware of it as we follow it. I promise you, this conciousness about us, this collectivity among us, as one gender-bending force, it is great. And you will say that this is a good thing, but it is not. For not all of us are meant to follow this path. I beg you, ask yourselves, "how many among you can say that pornography was not a motivator in your decision to transition? And how many among you has not considered the incentive of sex, or being a desired, sexual creature? And how many of you truly can say that when you first put on those clothes, you did not masturbate for the image in the mirror before you?" Please ask yourselves these questions, and answer them honestly?

A sincere woman will tell you that she has always been a woman, regardless of her upbringing. Or that even in living with such great conservative restraints she could never let go of that part of her that she knew was feminine and genuine. A sincere woman never looked at sex in the ways that men do. And being herself, "dressing out" was not accompanied by an urge to splurge, to indulge in a living and sexual, narcissistic fantasy. This is not womanly. This boyish, and this is what separates women from boys.

You know, I see an epidemic right now. And I believe that sex has come to a very exotic point that defies everything conventional. Now the extremes are so great, and yet so easily accessible, that they have to be accepted. There is way out of it. Since the establishment of a global psychological precedent, now so many of us are enchanted, and fixated upon dreams, and fantasies. And now we can live out those fantasies to the very end. Only, how quickly do we realise that in order to make that one dream a reality, we have to give up everything in return. And even worse, how much more distressing is it that many of us many never really realise them. That many of them many never be manifest -- or at least, not in the ways we imagined.

D'you know, there are a few reasons given for why so many of us transtion late. But you know, it is not uncommon for a man to have something of a mid-life crisis. And sometimes, a man may chase a dream that was never fully thought out. He just thought.....that maybe....if only....But never really knew. Which is why he too often finds himself disappointed with the conclusion of his last minute endeavor. Recall, for example, his tendency to cluth tightly his youth in things like buying a Harley, or starting up a business doomed to fail. Adolescent dreams that never were. And of course, he is morbidly disappointed.

There is a reason for all of this,the connection, and it is engrained in our psychology -- or, at least, most of us. And this is none of it accidental, either. The flow of society has been geared in a specific direction. And it brings us towards nostalgia, and wanting, and it teaches us the the values in the obessions to maintain our youth. We no longer have our men and women to look up to, to grow up to be. We have only children, for the gods that the media drives into our heads. It is not right to be old. It is not right to lose our youth. Children are what we must be. In act of spite, or irony, instead engraining the innocense and wonder of a child, we have been instilled with the wanting, and demands of children. We are resigned to a material world, and accept that we are only material beings. God does not exist. Not in the ways we were misled to believe. God is now us. And are immortal so long as we have our youth. And for our youth, we cannot see passed illusion. And we cannot see the difference between fantasy and reality. It all has to be one. And we to make it so, or otherwise go crazy until it all falls into place. And of course, for most of us, this never happens. And when it does, it's never how we imagined. Ever.



Holy conjecture Batman! You just glazed a healthy helping of Ontological orgasm over pseudo scientific philosophy, and served it with a side of presumption.

It seems you have an earnest desire to understand things on a deeper level, to dig deeper than our sensory world, which is a truly admiral quality and I support you whole heartedly in that pursuit. However, you must reel back the certainty of your many assertions because you managed to pigeon a great number of people in one fell swoop. Yes, I do believe there is a true transsexual condition, and some people may be confused - I mean it is confusing as heck after all. And yes, transsexualism is difficult, and it, in itself, is often enough to drive people over the edge. But it is also likely that the ones you mentioned were dealing with factors that we will never learn of. Let us not claim to understand their decisions, instead, simply share your compassion and do it liberated from judgment. The human experience is an incomprehensible thing, where personal desires and thoughts insist we give them form and expression. Unfortunately we are forced to exist in a society that is deliberately opposed to the free-forming beauty of those personal expressions. If ones desires lead them to transition and then de-transition than so-be-it, I will support them all the way, and until they feel content.

Barring only that which would do harm, let us give space for desires to be realized, formed, and explored. That is the ultimate respect we can give each other, and we all deserve to have it.
Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:59 pm
silo99
 
I did not know who Mike/Christine was when I first read this, so I looked up the story. I was saddened for him/her, because I understand the problem all too well. It is so sad when another one of us takes thier own life to kill the pain. How many per week, world-wide will we never hear about? It is also sad when others presume to have all the answers, when all they really have are opinions, even if well-informed. Being Trans is hard on us even on good days. I only hope that Mike/Christine can find some peace in the afterlife, or maybe the next one.
Gina Renee 157
Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:51 am
GinaRenee157
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Liv wrote:I happened to watch a program on the television teh other day about another transgender individual: Michael Berke who transitioned then "un-transitioned" based on religious influence. He mentions how he's deeply depressed, and often suicidal. Then there's the recent news of Mike Penner, a reporter, whom by all appearances did the same thing. Sometime in 2008 he began using "Mike Penner" on his byline after transitioning to Christine Daniels in 2007. Except this time, he committed suicide in his L.A. home:

Colleagues said today that Penner was found dead at his Los Angeles home and that suicide was the suspected cause of death. He was 52.


Apparently there's a lot of second guessing out there. No doubt, due to societal taboos, religious persecution, and other efforts forcing individuals into self doubt even after transition. It's really quite sad and personally I could never imagine even thinking about going back, if there ever was a back?


I just love how this article like most trans-(whatever self-identified) likes to scapegoat the Christian Right for all of its problems and failures. Although the Xtian Right is a major contributor towards the hardships many trans-(whatever self-identified) people face and perhaps the largest, they aren't to blame for everything. The Xtian Right bogeymen thing only goes so far until it gets beyond played out and outright pathetic.

Ordinarily, Mike Penner himself would have been and should have been 100% to blame for his own misguided stupidity. Since arrogant and corrupt groups like WPATH insist that they know what’s best for transsexuals better than transsexuals know themselves than go as far as asserting that position with legal force over transsexuals, the blame shifts to WPATH 100%!

Had there been no such thing as WPATH, Mr. Penner would likely been alive today. His therapist put him through the therapy and encouraged him to live full-time as a woman because he told them what they wanted to hear and jumped their hoops! If there was no WPATH, Mr. Penner would have had to take 100% responsibility for his own decisions.
He alone would have been responsible for getting to know himself better, do his research, and decide what is most comfortable for him. Had that been the case, he would have at least waited until retirement and probably lived as something of a bi-gender or perhaps gender queer lifestyle rather than go through with a complete and misguided full transition attempt.

When people successfully assert their legal right to keep a gate, they should inherit strict legal and do inherit strict social liability for letting through those who shouldn’t have gone through it pass through and are responsible for the damage they cause delaying or denying someone passage through it that should have been able to go through.

99% of the population knows what their gender is without having to consult a therapist to tell them what it is and how to live as a member of such! It is no different for a primary or true transsexual either. Being forced to prove it is a severe form of sexual harassment to outright sexually traumatic assault as it would be if a cissexual person had to go through these hoops to prove their gender before they can be respected as such!

I sure do hope his next of kin sues the hell out of his therapist. Even better if they sue WPATH itself!
Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:17 am
Obnoxious1
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:44 am
Society is always dumping its garbage on people who do not conform. They use guilt, religion, science, the bible, and the binary system to keep us in our place. There are more of us than they think.

One belief that goes around is that every transgender person wants to have the operation. This is not always the case. Most transgender people do not have reassignment surgery. Some take hormones while others don't. I am a transgenderist who recently migrated to the transgender/transsexual spectrum. I am not going to take hormones or have reassignment surgery. I feel cofortable with my decision and with who I am.

I can only imagine the anguish Mike Penner may have suffered. I have seen the need of after-care for people who have had the surgery. There may some depression, questioning, and a whole range of emotions. Some in the medical and trans communities may have the idea that surgery is the panacea for what ails us but it's not. The only thing I always say is be sure that this is what you want to do.

When I came out, I said that I'm not going back into closet. My transgender identity is out to the people I have told.

Genevieve
Be who you are.
Let no one else define who you are.
I'm getting better with age.
Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:27 pm
genevieve
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:19 pm
genevieve wrote:Society is always dumping its garbage on people who do not conform. They use guilt, religion, science, the bible, and the binary system to keep us in our place. There are more of us than they think.

One belief that goes around is that every transgender person wants to have the operation. This is not always the case. Most transgender people do not have reassignment surgery. Some take hormones while others don't. I am a transgenderist who recently migrated to the transgender/transsexual spectrum. I am not going to take hormones or have reassignment surgery. I feel cofortable with my decision and with who I am.

I can only imagine the anguish Mike Penner may have suffered. I have seen the need of after-care for people who have had the surgery. There may some depression, questioning, and a whole range of emotions. Some in the medical and trans communities may have the idea that surgery is the panacea for what ails us but it's not. The only thing I always say is be sure that this is what you want to do.

When I came out, I said that I'm not going back into closet. My transgender identity is out to the people I have told.

Genevieve



The public seems to have an infatuation with transsexuals and sex changes that they don’t have with gender benders.

The reason the public conflates transsexuals with transgenders is because that is exactly what the queer media group GLAAD (Gays and Lesbians against Anti-defamation) demands that the mainstream media do. The general public is merely taking their queues from GLAAD via the mainstream media.

As long as transsexuals are being libeled as a subtype of transgender, the conflation will continue in everyone’s worst interests. Placing transgenderists in a broader umbrella with transsexuals is just as misguided and destructive as placing transgenderists with gender non-conforming people. The queer media group GLAAD needs to see transsexualism as a distinct phenomenon of its own and completely different from transgenderism in order for both groups to get the relational respect that they are seeking.
Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:14 am
Obnoxious1
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:44 am
OK! Enouph of this you are or arn't a transexual for this or that. Ok these to indivuals may or may not have been transexuals, we will never know because we arn't them. I mean they don't even know hence the de-transition.

For those placing blame on one thing or the other. Don't! The only people to blame are outside persons trying to perswade someone eles to do what they seem is right for the other person.
For example, I have a friend that I corespond with, and she told me that her doctor is pushing her to get SRS, and she's only been on HRT for a year and she's not exactly sure that is the rout she wants to go. If I were in her shoes, I'd fire my doctor and find another that will support and not perswade.

Someone like us should be shown all the info that they can find to make an educated decition on weather or not they should go through such a life altering and almost ireversable undertaking we refer to as transition.

See I am one of those people that didn't out right say I was a female from the age on 9 or even think it that I can recall. But than I was pysicly, mentally, and sexually abused by my father at a very young age. I started my wearing on the oposites sexs clothes by means of panties and it arroused me. I would dress for a sexual thrill up to my very early twenties. But that slowly manefested in comfort.

Now all of that made me suspect that I may not be transexual, and just trans. But the more I read of the transition prosses and what you are to suspect. After reading all of the usfull information (that I wish I'd come across at about 18, I'm now 29 and 5 months into HRT) I'd made up my mind to transition.

The one thing that I read about HRT was that your thinking patter will change. My pattern of thought didn't how ever. Yes my emotions are more in-tune, my sences are more acute, and my lebedo has changed. But I still think like a female, as I always have, and that's how I know this is right for me. (there's more to it, but I didn't sleep last night, and I'm having trouble keeping my train of thought from derailing.)

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you should not put restrictions on someone who is in distress, because they may buckle under the pressure.

Sorry, my post is long and hard to read. I blame it on a school system that couldn't find the right means to teach me with my unique set of learning disabilitys.
Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:08 pm
thirdeyegirl
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:57 pm

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